860 | Scandinavian Fly Fishing with Marcus Bohlin of Nam Products

WFS 860 Transcript 00:00:00 Speaker 1: From the Deschutes Canyon to the big Baltic rivers of Sweden. Today’s guest has spent a lifetime chasing migratory fish with two hands on the cork. He grew up fishing before he could talk, cut his teeth in the Scandinavian salmon world, and now helps the US expansion of a brand that’s been quietly influencing the modern space scene for years. If you’ve wondered why Scandinavian anglers obsess over rod length, liter diameter and the true line weight, or why fourteen foot seven weight might actually make more sense on the Deschutes River than some of the shorter rods, this episode is your window into that world. This is the podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love. Marcus Bolin from Nom products is here to break down how Sweden’s public water salmon system compares to Norway, Iceland and even steelhead rivers, and why you might want to think about Sweden this year. Why Nom builds so many six piece two handers and why more ferals might actually cast better. We’re going to get into the truth about skinny versus Skagit, and why those differences matter less now than most anglers think, and how to choose leaders based on water speed and not just depth. This is an amazing one. We’ve heard about non products and their leaders, how they’re breaking the mold and producing a product that is comparable to maxima. We’re going to get into that conversation as well. Here we go Marcus. You can find him at products. How are you doing Marcus. 00:01:31 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you I’m really good. Um, excited. 00:01:34 Speaker 1: Yeah, I’m excited too. I think what I’ve been hearing out there is I’m really excited because, you know, nom products, you guys have a number of great products out there. You know, Spey and, you know, single hand, double hand everything is really a big thing for us because we got a lot of people swinging flies. And so we’re going to get into all that. We’re going to talk about your product line. And I think we’re going to focus on some micro Spey too as well, because I know trout fishing and some smaller species is definitely popular as well, but maybe take us back real quick. Talk about where are you located physically now and take us all the way back to to fly fishing. How did you first get into all this? 00:02:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I’m located in Sweden and, uh, well, I’ve been fishing all my life since I could talk. There’s some pictures at my parents house where I have a life vest on and, uh, rods and, uh. Yeah, at least. Yeah. I just had started to walk, I guess maybe. Yeah. Was that two years? 00:02:32 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:02:32 Speaker 2: Uh, or you walk in first year and then you talk in second year. 00:02:37 Speaker 1: Yeah. I always forget. 00:02:38 Speaker 2: That, but I forgot. 00:02:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. You walk well. Yeah. You, I remember myself. It’s interesting where I’m at because I’m doing this podcast and talking to, you know, literally hundreds of people. But I didn’t start talking. I started walking probably at one or something like that, but I didn’t start talking until I was about four or five. It was way late. I was kind of a shy kid, but yeah, I think that’s right. So go ahead. 00:02:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So been fishing all my life and, uh, I guess I’m just born. I have a brother, and he had the same upbringing, and he didn’t get into fishing. I got crazy in with too much, I would say. And I guess you’re born with it. I thought a lot about that. Uh, if you can learn to like it or if you just like it from the start and it seems like, uh, with my kids, I have three kids. And. Yeah, I don’t know if I have actually convinced any of those three. 00:03:32 Speaker 1: Uh oh. Right. 00:03:33 Speaker 2: That it’s fun. 00:03:34 Speaker 1: I have. Now tell me this because I have two kids. I have two girls, and they’re they’re nine and eleven or. Sorry, I always say that they’re eleven and thirteen and I haven’t been pushing them hard for it. You know, we’ve just been there. But we actually had this trip. We did a road trip and they both got into really nice rainbows and stuff, but they I feel like maybe they’re getting into it now, but I didn’t push them. How did you do it? Did you? Sounds like you didn’t push them either. 00:03:58 Speaker 2: No, I haven’t pushed them either. And, um, I can’t really explain why they haven’t gotten us in touch with it as as I was as a kid. But in February, we’re actually going to Bahamas. And my daughter, she likes clear water and and warm weather and all that. So. And she’s fifteen. So. And I think I’m gonna stick a fly rod in her hand and see what maybe in that environment, maybe she will get more. We’ll see. Um, but yeah. So I’ve been fishing all my life, and I did track and field in as a youngster. And then to relax, I went fishing, um, kind of clear the brain. And then I started to work. In two thousand and four, I started at a company called guideline, uh, which is a European brand. Yeah. I was really fortunate to get into the business and, um, start working with it. And I still enjoy, even if I’m not. Before it was kind of crazy fishing in Norway, uh, going from pool to pool and, and then almost running in between the pools and no sleep, um, little food and everything. Uh, now I enjoy the full package, so I’m more relaxed. Uh, fishing. Um, I don’t know if it’s the age or if it’s just that this is also, uh, my profession. Um, or a combination. Maybe so, but, yeah, I’m really fortunate to be able to travel the world and fish in different, uh, places. Actually, we’ve been going we had a round last year with a few Americans, actually, uh, around the table, which, uh, was the favorite river of everyone. And, uh, actually, my favorite river is the Deschutes. Oh, really? Yeah. So I tell my wife when I die, she should spread my ashes in the Deschutes. 00:05:58 Speaker 1: So this is pretty cool. I bet the more you talk, the more it sounds like I’m hearing somebody that sounds like myself. And now that you say the Deschutes, that’s actually my home river, so. Oh, yeah. 00:06:08 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:06:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So I’m about four. Well, I’m four hours from it, but the Deschutes, that’s pretty cool to hear. So what’s your let’s take that tangent a little bit on the Deschutes. What was your first trip out there on the Deschutes? What got you hooked on the Deschutes? 00:06:21 Speaker 2: Uh, it was first, I think there was actually a test from a guy called Chris O’Donnell. He runs Bend Fly shop. Sure. Um, and he was kind enough to take us out with his jetboat the first day. I think this is maybe now four years ago. Uh huh. And we didn’t actually see a steel or nothing, but just a pure environment of. Yeah, um, desert cold water, uh, Floating line, still quite longer casts and just a type of fishery, and just the surrounding of being in that canyon. And, uh, yeah, just a full package. And then we did the two years after that, we did a trip with, uh, Barrett and Curtis, uh, and, uh, yeah, that was just sleeping under the sky. Yeah. It’s it’s just. Yeah. So it’s just a perfect combination of being there in September. It’s warm outside. The river is cold. So you’re always comfortable. Um, yeah. It’s just everything, uh, around it, uh, is just lovely. How how the fish, uh. 00:07:33 Speaker 1: The fish are active, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The summer steelhead. Yeah, there’s. We’ve done, you know, probably like you, you know, we’ve traveled around and done a lot of different steelhead episodes or, you know, steelhead trips. But yeah, the Deschutes, for those that haven’t been there, what makes it special is it’s on the the east side of the mountain range in Oregon, which makes it it’s the desert. Everything. People don’t realize. I think a lot of people think of Oregon as a big, super rainy, and it is the West side. But when you get to the east, it’s it’s less than ten inches of rain and it’s the desert. But within that you’ve got this giant four thousand five hundred cfs river flowing right through the middle of the desert. And it’s cold and it’s a tail water. And you have steelhead migrating up from, you know, through the Columbia River, the biggest river in the western United States. And they’re turning into the Deschutes for that cold water. And then. Right. And you’re out. You’re out there under the stars and enjoying it and swinging up a fish. 00:08:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s just lovely. And so that’s the big upside of, uh, of this job to travel and get to see places like that. It’s very most, I would say Swedish people that go for steel and they have, uh, it’s more common. They go to Canada and to BC. uh, very few Swedish people actually go to Oregon for for Steeler fishing. Right. Um, and that’s a shame a little bit, because they miss, uh, such a beautiful place. Uh, I think. Yeah. And, um. Yeah, I obviously also love to fish. Uh, um, back home as well. Sweden. Uh, Norway. Uh. 00:09:10 Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah. You guys have some good. Have some amazing rivers back in your neck of the woods, too. Well, I think I was thinking today to to talk microspin. We’ll probably mix up a little bit, but the fact that you mentioned the Deschutes, I think we should get into a conversation as well about steelhead. You know, choosing the right gear, uh, for something there. But let’s take it back high level on, you know, Nam and I’ve heard a number of great things. One thing is, you know, the leaders that you guys have, some leaders that are really, you know, amazing. You know, I think maxima is the leader a lot of people hear about for steelhead for a number of reasons. But, um, let’s go down that just because I know Brian Niska on or in the Bucket podcast has talked about this. What is it about those leaders? Why is there so much buzz? You know, what did you guys create there? 00:09:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it’s kind of a also we’re trying to adapt to the American market there a little bit because we over here we don’t talk about how strong the material is. We talk about how thick it is and also in millimeters, which confuse, uh, you guys even more. 00:10:10 Speaker 3: Yeah, right. We’re not that smart. No. 00:10:13 Speaker 2: No. So what we were looking for was actually, um, material which is thin and strong, um, and we think, and it has very little memory. Also the material, it’s, uh, it’s a coated, uh, it has a fluorocarbon core, and then it has a mono coating on it. So it kind of have the benefits of both fluorocarbon and mono. 00:10:40 Speaker 1: Is it mono though? It’s not fluoro. 00:10:42 Speaker 2: No. Nah. It’s both. 00:10:43 Speaker 3: Oh it’s both, it is. So you got. 00:10:44 Speaker 2: Both. Yeah. So it’s both. And that makes it so it has very little memory. Uh, it’s supple enough and it’s very strong for its diameter. Um. 00:10:57 Speaker 3: Yeah. Right. 00:10:58 Speaker 2: Uh, or for how thick it is, uh, as we see it. Because, uh, back here, we fish with as strong material as we can find, but still, we don’t want it to be too stiff or too fat, because then, yeah, the fly doesn’t move, right? Um, yeah. At least when you fish with a smaller, maybe hook salmon fly. Um, than it’s than the material if you can have an open nut. But it’s not the same really. So then you have lots of benefits of being able to use really strong material, which is not too thick. Um, and I guess that’s the difference. Um, maxima is really nice and soft and but if you compare how strong our material is to maxima, uh, it’s way thinner. So we actually recommend, if you, uh, buy our material, take much, much stronger than you used to. Also, if it’s too thin, uh, if you have the same strength as maxima, you could get problems. Uh, if the leader, uh, goes on rock, fight the fish or something like that. If the material is thinner, it’s not as strong as it is with a thicker material. So it has some ups and and. Yeah, but yeah, you just have to find the. 00:12:23 Speaker 3: Perfect. 00:12:24 Speaker 2: Size for you and also that. So you don’t want your tipping material to be too strong because then if you get stuck or snag somewhere. 00:12:33 Speaker 3: Right. 00:12:33 Speaker 2: Then you might break your line instead of the tip. You always want to tip it to break. Uh. So. 00:12:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got you. Is this the, um. The density, the. How do you pronounce? Is it zentai? Zentai. High density. 00:12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it’s just something. It’s in Japanese. It’s, uh. The meaning of it is, uh, whole. As I understand, it’s a Japanese material, and we just wanted some, uh. 00:12:56 Speaker 1: Some connection to. 00:12:57 Speaker 2: Name on it. 00:12:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. No, I like it. Zentai. Well, what is the, um, you know, in maxima? I just think, you know, we use everything from, you know, typically eight pound. I even use some. I’ve used some of that for trout, but it’s mostly like steelhead. So it’s, you know, eight pound, ten pound I think on the Skeena Brian uses twenty pound. What would be the if you were going to be using, let’s just say for normal steelhead fishing, let’s say the Deschutes. Let’s just go to Deschutes. What would you be using on the Deschutes? What millimeter for that. For liter for tippet? 00:13:23 Speaker 2: Uh, yeah. Well, I would use our, uh. What’s most common, I think, is our twenty six pound, actually. 00:13:29 Speaker 1: Yeah. Twenty six. 00:13:30 Speaker 2: And that’s in millimeters. 00:13:32 Speaker 1: Zero point three, three point three three. Yeah. So twenty six. So you have I’m looking now. You got twenty six pounds. Thirty five. So when you look at that, yeah, you would think that it’s a little well it’s twenty six pounds versus like I said, you know, so with twenty six pounds how would that compare to a maxima. Do you know much on the comparison. Like if I was using, you know, twelve pound maxima, would that be similar or. Yeah, I would. 00:13:55 Speaker 2: Imagine that that’s quite in how thick the material is. Probably about the same. 00:14:00 Speaker 1: Yeah I guess just look at the thickness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the key. 00:14:03 Speaker 2: Uh, yeah. So it’s just, I mean, we, we made it first for Atlantic salmon fishing and then we used way, uh, thicker and stronger actually for Atlantic salmon fishing. And then it was just a coincidence that it’s also really nice material to use for steelhead fishing. Yeah, but the main thing from the start was to find a material which was really suitable for salmon fishing. And then we use really strong stuff. Um, uh, there’s, uh, I don’t know if you do it in steelhead, but in some places in Sweden, um, fish above rapids and things like that. So you there’s a word for it. You call it to walk the dog. 00:14:47 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 00:14:47 Speaker 2: So you pretty much. Yeah. You pretty much just lock the reel and then you walk with the fish instead. 00:14:52 Speaker 1: Um. 00:14:53 Speaker 2: So those, those guys they really like with everything is strong. 00:14:57 Speaker 1: Oh, right. So they’ll get a fish and they’ll have a fish that they got to really lock up and not let it run. 00:15:02 Speaker 2: Yeah. Otherwise it goes out the rapids and then you lose all your line. You lose everything. Everything is gone. 00:15:09 Speaker 1: Located in Boulder, Colorado, Intrepid Camp Gear is dedicated to designing and manufacturing the best and most highly engineered automotive camp gear on the market. Intrepid Camp Gear specializes in rooftop tents and aluminum cargo cases designed for skis, rods, hunting gear, and any other gear you may be hauling. Elevate your adventure with Intrepid Camp gear right now. Head over to Wet Fly. Right now that’s intrepid I and. Intrepid camp gear experienced the waters of Bristol Bay at Togiak River Lodge, where fly fishing meets Alaska’s rugged beauty. This is the place to complete the Alaska Grand Slam with all five salmon species, rainbow trout, Arctic char and more. Where each day offers a new Alaskan adventure, you can visit Togiak Lodge right now to start planning your Bristol Bay experience with Togiak River Lodge. Well, this is great to hear because I’m kind of in mine too. I’m getting ready for an Atlantic salmon trip. Um, you know, we’re heading to Newfoundland to Mountain Waters Resort, and and so I’ve never fished for Atlantic. I’ve fished for summer steelhead and winters and all the steelhead. But this will be my first time. And I’ve heard these fish can be pretty crazy, right? They can just go and you can’t stop. It sounds like that’s what you guys have. You have a leader that really is meant to. If you need to stop those fish from running. Is that is that the idea? 00:16:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit. Uh, I actually like to steelhead because it burns out way faster. So it’s more spectacular in the beginning compared to the Atlantic salmon. But, uh, I think that salmon, it seems like they can go longer and for longer time, and they can. I’m not that experienced in steelhead fishing, but in some big rivers with Atlantic salmon, they use the current a lot. And if the current is really strong then it’s really difficult to be able to hold the fish. 00:17:02 Speaker 1: Difficult? 00:17:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah yeah. 00:17:04 Speaker 1: How does that work on your you know. So you fish the Deschutes. You know what that river is like. How does that compare to, say, let’s take us over to Norway or Sweden. You know, we hear a lot more about Norway, but does Sweden also have some rivers there we haven’t heard about? 00:17:16 Speaker 2: Yeah. Sweden has uh, I actually enjoy them because it’s more similarity to, uh, steelhead fishery to go to Sweden for salmon fishing, because then you just buy a public license and then you go fishing. It’s miles and miles and miles to go fish. Uh, when you go to Norway, you most often, uh, rent or lease a beat, and then you maybe have a normal is maybe half a mile or one mile. And then during that week you have that stretch that you fish all week, just one stretch going up and down. And that’s a comparison to steelhead, where you kind of are more used to see more of the river. Uh, Sweden is more comparable way and it’s the areas is vast. And you can spend a lifetime up there and just explore. 00:18:10 Speaker 1: Uh, you can. 00:18:11 Speaker 2: Yeah. And it’s instead of Atlantic salmon, it’s Baltic salmon. We have the Baltic Sea. 00:18:16 Speaker 1: Uh, Baltic. 00:18:17 Speaker 2: Yeah. On the east side of Sweden, where the Baltic Sea, uh, which we share with Finland and a little bit of Russia. 00:18:26 Speaker 1: Oh, really? Russia’s in there somewhere. Yeah. 00:18:29 Speaker 2: Russia. 00:18:29 Speaker 1: They have. Oh, by Saint Petersburg, right? 00:18:31 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, and Poland. So. And those fish are a little bit, uh, different in temper. Uh, they’re a little bit more aggressive. Uh oh. Wow. So if you want to be spoiled or and then, then it’s actually a better place to go to Sweden and try to hook a fish there than to Norway in general. The fish is a little bit calmer. Uh, the temper. It’s quite unusual to get spoiled in the same way. Norway, uh, for the Atlantic salmon. 00:19:03 Speaker 1: When you compare Norway to Sweden, uh, fishing wise, just let’s just say numbers, you know, you go there, are you going to have a better chance to, um, you know, get a fish, more fish in Sweden versus Norway. Are they about equal? 00:19:17 Speaker 2: Um, yeah, just like with steel. And it depends on, uh, the river. I would say if you just have one week, uh, and you have no experience, You have way better chances in Norway compared to Sweden. Gotcha. But if you have a really good guide and that knows where to go in Sweden, uh, then you have a better chance. So it depends a little bit on who you know and what contacts you have. And it’s the fish can be bigger in Sweden also and bigger. 00:19:49 Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like that’s what I some people would be doing. I might do it if it was just me. You know, where you have a, you know, maybe I don’t know if you can DIY it, but you go in there and you get a guide maybe for a day or two or something like that. You learn the area and then you go on your own and spend a few weeks there, maybe a month or something like that. Fishing. Could you do that in Sweden? 00:20:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. That you could do in Sweden. It would be way more difficult to do that in Norway because it’s. 00:20:12 Speaker 1: Expensive and it’s. 00:20:14 Speaker 2: Expensive. And Iceland would be even tougher to do that. Uh, even if Iceland, you can get what you can. Yeah. It’s normally really good and safe fishing. 00:20:24 Speaker 1: I think that’s what’s cool about this, You know, in talking to you. Because, you know, we’ve heard a lot about Norway. We’ve done some episodes, but we really haven’t had anybody talk about this. The fact that it feels like Norway is really pay to play. You got to have a lot of money, you know, you got to get on these beats and all this stuff. But but it sounds like, yeah, Sweden. There’s some areas over there where you can kind of maybe, you know, get your ticket and go explore, right and go check some stuff out. 00:20:48 Speaker 2: There’s, uh, more and more actually going to Sweden exploring more and more British people. Uh, yeah. It’s, um, it’s an easy country to travel around in and, um, really easy access or to, to buy a license. It’s very easy, just like BC it’s very easy as well. And in general, with this deal, it seems quite easy. 00:21:12 Speaker 1: That’s great. That’s awesome. 00:21:14 Speaker 2: Well, yeah. 00:21:15 Speaker 1: So I think I think we will well, I think, you know, the challenge here is Marcus’s, um, you know, I love when I have these podcasts because, I mean, I could just tell you, we could talk for hours and hours and we wouldn’t run out of stuff because you got so many. So I think I’m already realizing we’re going to have to bring you back on for another one. But but let’s jump into today. I want to talk about, like we said, we’ve got the steelhead, we got the leaders. I really want to talk about them and what they’re doing differently because I feel like in the US, you know, we’ve talked about this, the revolution right from early in the days to now where we’re doing these really, it’s all Skagit. It’s all heavy, it’s all short, and Nam is doing something different. Talk about your Spey line. Maybe, maybe focus on that a little bit and talk about, you know, what you guys are doing there. You know Scandi versus Skagit and all that. 00:21:58 Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually when we started in the, in the, uh, North America, we or I thought that it was a huge difference in culture when it came to what rods do people like, what lines do people like to put on their rods? And we had to adapt a lot to that. What, uh, line weight. We should put on rods. Uh, what is the seven weight? What is six weight? What is nitrate? And then the more and more, uh, I fished in the US and the more and more people we brought over here to us, I realized that it’s actually not a huge difference, actually. And also there’s been a between Norway and Swedes. Uh, in the past, people had talked that the Swedes like way lighter line than the Norwegian, but then it’s just, um, I think misunderstanding in just how long lighter do you use? And if so, if you have to fish with people. People seem to have quite similar taste. Um, so we started out with having a different stock actually in the US, our program, uh, road program was different from in the US compared to the European warehouse we had and the stock we had here. So we labeled the rod a little bit differently. And then we realized, ah, it seems like people actually want to have same lines as we want to have on. So when it comes to Scandi casting, Skagit casting, uh, long lines, uh, all that different. It’s quite people, uh, in my opinion, actually like the same stuff. 00:23:37 Speaker 1: Mm. What would be the like? Let’s take it to the Deschutes, because I think we both have fished that. What would be? We’re getting ready to go summer steelhead fishing. And again, for those that don’t know summer steelheads a little bit different than winter steelhead. You know the weights and stuff. Summer is more lighter. You know you’re and again I’ve talked about this before. I learned when I was a kid about steelhead fishing, reading books on Atlantic salmon. You know, we had some great books from eastern Canada and stuff like that. But but talk about on the Deschutes. What would be the perfect line to use for summer steelhead on the Deschutes? 00:24:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually made a rod last year, a fourteen foot seven weight. And on that rod I think most common is had around four hundred and fifty, uh, grains. Maybe if you like it heavy, you could go up to five hundred. And that’s about a normal, um, seven weight is. Yeah, between four hundred five hundred range somewhere around there. Yeah. And, um, when it comes to length, um, I can’t really say because in my mind, I have everything in meters and I have to translate it into. 00:24:45 Speaker 1: Feet, but. That’s right. Yeah, but the fourteen foot seven weight is something. Yeah. Or a thirteen and a half or sometimes people go a little bit shorter, but, um. Yeah. You know, somewhere in there. 00:24:55 Speaker 2: Yeah. It’s long. Um, well, maybe unusual, long to have a fourteen foot. But we think in the Deschutes, uh, and I would imagine also in the Clearwater, it’s practical to be able to and actually that’s in many places in, in, in the Deschutes, you have no space to do a back cast and you’re deep waiting. You have no room. And actually, in my mind. 00:25:19 Speaker 1: fourteen is. 00:25:20 Speaker 2: Better. Um, yeah. I’ve learned that it’s actually easier with a longer rod than with a short one, because you make the you have the d-loop more in front of you, or are able to have a d-loop more in front of you with a longer one than you have with a shorter. 00:25:33 Speaker 1: Awesome. That’s awesome. 00:25:34 Speaker 2: So there’s a lot of benefits with, uh, to use longer rods. Um, and that’s maybe a little bit of our niche is, uh, also over here is to in general, our rods is a little bit longer, uh, than people maybe are used to. We have, uh, switch rods and all that, and that’s super fun to use. Um, if there’s a really small river and if you don’t have to do long casts and all that, but, uh, yeah, there’s. If you have a rod that’s light enough, uh, in the tip not to tip heavy. There’s just so many benefits of using a longer rod. 00:26:14 Speaker 1: I love this I love where this is going to. because, you know, we we were fishing up at Togiak River Lodge this year for Chinook salmon up there in Alaska. And and all the rods there we used were the bigger, you know, they’re heavier too, because we were fishing for bigger fish, but they were longer rods and you didn’t know the difference. And the nice thing is, is what’s happened is the technology, right in rods, has gotten to the point where they’re not super heavy anymore. So you can get a fourteen foot rod that’s light in the hand now. 00:26:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree. So that that would be my goal today. Now that we have that rod we’re also working on. Um, we were supposed to talk about Micro Spey or Trout Spey and, and then our American colleague said yeah, well uh, Trout Spey only goes up to four. 00:27:02 Speaker 1: Oh, right. 00:27:02 Speaker 2: But we wanted to make a five weight and a six weight. So, uh, we thought about it, and maybe. So maybe we had to invent a new term. Um, so I don’t know if it’s right that trout spey isn’t available. It may be in five and six, but we wanted to make a rod in five and six. That is kind of in the same series or the same style as our trout spirals. So that’s what we’re doing and we’re calling it light Spey. 00:27:29 Speaker 1: O light Spey. 00:27:30 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don’t know if that’s right or wrong, but um, yeah. Just to kind. 00:27:34 Speaker 1: Of get your own series. I’m looking at one now, the Trout Spey I’m looking at. So you have six piece rods, two you’re doing there. 00:27:40 Speaker 2: Yeah. We we don’t see any downside when it comes to rod action on the six piece. We actually think they perform as good or sometimes even better than the four piece. So to make them in six piece, uh, it’s really practical. Um, there’s lots of customers maybe fishing, uh, both steelhead, or they go down to Argentina and the flights also up to BC. I understand lots of people lose their luggage. And so it’s really practical to have a six piece. 00:28:12 Speaker 1: It Is it especially for Sp-a? And we’ve been talking a lot about this because we’ve had another company, um, Pescador, on the fly, who does a trout rod. They’re mostly focused on trout and it’s a six piece. And the man I’ve been using that traveling around the country and it just disappears. I mean, you could throw it in any bag, pretty much. And it’s gone. You don’t have to check it. It’s just. No, you know, it’s just there. So then that’s a cool thing because the Spey rod, if you’re talking a fourteen foot rod, thirteen whatever a four piece rod is gigantic. So you’re talking six pieces makes a difference when you’re traveling. 00:28:42 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. So yeah, we lean a lot on the six piece in general. Uh, we make a lot of six piece and more and more is coming. Uh, maybe not a nine footer with we have in generally, uh, we have five piece in nine foot as well. But most of our, uh, our four piece, uh. 00:29:07 Speaker 1: four piece. 00:29:08 Speaker 2: We try to make a two piece for, uh, Tarpon fishing, but it seems like most people wanted for peace down there as well. Um, for peace. So yeah, we’re in one piece, but that’s so. 00:29:22 Speaker 1: Yeah. You guys. So what is your focus? So take let’s go back high level on non product. So what do you think is the thing. It sounds like you guys are doing a lot out there. What’s your what did you get started with. What was your first kind of rod line. And what do you think is your sweet spot now that you guys are really focusing on is it spay or is it trout or single hand? What do you think? Are you do it all? 00:29:41 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:29:41 Speaker 2: We became a little bit of a spay brand. And maybe that’s because how we started with, uh, we had the idea that if we start from the top. So we actually started with a seventeen foot rod, uh, long, because it’s the longer rod in what I believe, uh, is harder to make or to make it good and balanced. 00:30:04 Speaker 1: Right. 00:30:05 Speaker 2: Um, and so we started from the top and then went, uh, shorter and shorter and shorter. So over here, first year, twenty eighteen was probably our first year. Um, then our most sold rods was our sixteen foot rod. So, yeah, we’re kind of known for, uh, bigger rod than for especially Atlantic salmon. 00:30:31 Speaker 1: And Atlantic salmon. Yeah. So you started there as, like, salmon with the long rods. And these are traditional, like long belly. You’re not talking about Skagit or really Scandi or talk about that a little bit. Were these what lines were you casting. 00:30:42 Speaker 2: No we’re using quite short shooting heads. Okay. On the long rods. Um, again, if it’s no room for a back cast, uh, and you have a really heavy sinking line on, sometimes you need to find fish. Really? So it’s a full sinking line. The full head is sinking. 00:31:02 Speaker 1: So you got a bigger. 00:31:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:31:03 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you got a bigger lever. 00:31:05 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then it’s way easier to do that with a long To just lift the line out of the water is way easier. Actually, with a longer rod and everything just becomes way easier. Uh, fishing with that program. So yeah. 00:31:19 Speaker 1: Is there a, you know, we talk about seventeen foot, which sounds like a super long rod, but could there be a, you know, like take it to the extreme, you know, an eighteen, nineteen, twenty foot rod, right. Could you build something? Would there be an advantage of even going bigger? 00:31:31 Speaker 2: Yeah. We have we had an eighteen foot, which we actually made for, uh, competition casting for, for the people that compete in casting. But we sold a few for competitor casters, but most we actually sold for people that were fishing. And there’s, uh, one pool up in the northern part of Sweden where the people, it’s kind of famous and it’s below a big waterfall. And, uh, people believe that a guy that cast the furthest is the one that catch the fish. So if you come there with a sixteen foot, the next guy come with a seventeen and then the next guy with eighteen. The cast brother. 00:32:11 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:32:11 Speaker 2: So we sold most of those roads actually up there, uh, to that specific pool actually, because it’s. Yeah, it’s so famous. And the guy that is throwing the first first, as I said, is the king for the day and and that’s it. 00:32:25 Speaker 1: Yeah. That’s pretty good. 00:32:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. It’s fishing, but it’s still a little bit of, uh, I shouldn’t say competing. It’s still fun, but it’s still. Yeah, it’s extreme. 00:32:38 Speaker 1: As you say, up there when you look at northern Sweden. So you mentioned the Baltic Sea on the kind of the, on that side there as you look north, is there a connection in northern Sweden out to the Norwegian Sea? Is there a direct or tributaries flowing in from Sweden, through Norway, out into the Norwegian Sea? 00:32:55 Speaker 2: Uh. 00:32:57 Speaker 1: Or is it is there a mountain range? It looks like there might be mountains. 00:33:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be a few rivers. Might start in Sweden and then go into Norway and then out to the Atlantic sea. Yeah, there are probably a few of those. And obviously there’s lots of people because the Swedish river gets warm way faster than the Norwegian because it’s more, um, meltwater, more snow, uh, in the going into the Norwegian rivers. Yeah. And, uh, so people start their season in Sweden, and then when it gets too warm, then they drive over to Norway instead and fish. Norway. Oh, right. So they can lengthen their season that way. So I would say Sweden is good in May or late May and June is safe to go. And then after that people tend to go to Norway after that. Uh that’s most common. 00:33:48 Speaker 1: Okay. That makes sense. I’m looking at your lines here on uh, non products. Uh, well, I guess you’ve got the dash, you’ve got the USA both different depending on where you’re at. But I see a rod here, the original DHL six pieces. What would be the rod again for the Deschutes. Let’s say you want to pick up that. You said the fourteen foot seven weight. What would be the line if we want to look at it here? Because I see the Wren double hand I see the the OS double hand. Which one is that? One you’re thinking for the Deschutes. 00:34:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the Wren. Fourteen foot seven weight. 00:34:17 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:34:17 Speaker 2: Fourteen Brown rod. 00:34:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. And five pieces or six. You have a five piece there too. 00:34:21 Speaker 2: That one there is five piece. 00:34:23 Speaker 1: Oh five. Yeah. The Wren double hand. 00:34:25 Speaker 2: Uh, a little bit weird because when some people, as I understand over here we use rod racks. So we put the rods on the car and then we drive from pool to pool in some areas. That’s not so smart to do. Then you want to pick your, uh, maybe in two pieces or three pieces and then put it in your car instead. Yeah. And then when it’s three piece or five piece, then it’s a little bit trickier because okay, you can’t split it in, in the middle. 00:34:53 Speaker 1: Oh right. Yeah. You can’t break it down in half. Yeah. 00:34:55 Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly. So a few people are kind of confused on that, but uh, we just see the the five P’s as new, uh, as a new three piece, a kind of a little bit more old school in a way. 00:35:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. The three piece. Yeah, I remember the three piece as well. Yeah. It’s funny because the way this rod has gone, right. We started out with, you know, I’m old enough to remember when the two piece rod was all you had. It was the two piece rod and that was what you had. And then you got to a four piece and you’re like, wow, this is great. But I do remember Eko specifically, you know, Eko had a three piece rod back in the whenever that was. And it and I still have it, you know, I still have it, but I always wondered, like, why the three piece rod versus the four? And it was probably, maybe the tech wasn’t there to keep it as light or why do you guys why did you go for the five just to switch it up a little bit? 00:35:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Just. Yeah. Exactly. 00:35:41 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:35:42 Speaker 2: And um, five is a little bit easier to travel with than a four, but a six is even better when it comes to traveling. Yeah. Um, and when it comes to rod action, we have noticed that actually almost the more pieces, the better. Almost. 00:36:00 Speaker 1: Oh, really? Like like you might even be, like, thinking an eight piece. 00:36:04 Speaker 2: Maybe if we make a really longer. Otherwise, if we make a short rod in a piece, it will be very, very short. 00:36:10 Speaker 1: Very short. Maybe in your back pocket. 00:36:12 Speaker 2: It’s just a hassle to put the rod together. 00:36:15 Speaker 1: Yeah. Too much. 00:36:15 Speaker 2: Work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But, uh, yeah. Six might be just the perfect number. 00:36:23 Speaker 1: Let’s take a break and check in with Jackson Hole Flight Company right now. The right gear can turn a good day on the water into an unforgettable one. Jackson Hole Flight Company’s combo kits are built to match the rhythm of the river, giving you everything you need in one simple package. Each kit pairs a perfectly matched rod and reel with essential accessories, ready to fish right out of the box. From the beginner friendly Crystal Creek to the high performance Flat Creek, there’s a setup for every angler, and don’t forget about their packs and slings. I’ve been loving my Jackson Hole Sling pack for a number of years now. The perfect size to fit all your gear, but not too heavy and not too big to drag you down. Check out their slings and rods and much more at Jackson Hole. Fly Company.com and you can support this podcast by checking in with Jackson Hole Fly Company today. Well, this is awesome. So I’m looking at it now and we’ll put a link in the show notes to the Wren five piece. That’s the five piece we’re talking about here. And obviously you have the six but I see yeah the ninety one forty. You got the everything we talked about. So that’s the rod. And then you guys and talk about. So you got the rods and I guess uh line wise now are you guys doing. Do you have the lines or are you guys focused more on rods and and tippet. 00:37:39 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we really enjoy to, uh, design lines and to make lines as much as, uh, designing rods. Rods. Uh, we’re really fortunate to have a really good manufacturer or a factory. Um, lines has been more difficult to actually find somebody to work with, or even we have even looked into, um, building our own line factory. So we really, really want to make lines. But it’s been tricky to to find the right, uh. 00:38:10 Speaker 1: Manufacturer because there’s only a few. Right. I think we’ve talked about that in the US. We’ve had a number of the big, all the big brands on and we’ve heard that story. In fact, we had, uh, you know, interesting episode recently. Well, airflow is a good example. Airflow was over on your side and it’s come across and now I think it’s owned over here. But yeah, I feel like lines or there’s only a few, uh, companies that actually build the lines right for everybody else. So you’ve got, you know. Yeah. And so it sounds like it’s the same way over in Europe. 00:38:37 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It’s very few, uh, on the planet that make it’s complicated where when we looked into it, it’s quite easy to make, uh, a coated line, just, uh, like a running line or a t material t tip. Just a straight. just have a core and then have a coating around it. It’s not too difficult, but as soon as you start to the taper, that’s the tricky part. The taper. 00:39:04 Speaker 1: Right. 00:39:04 Speaker 2: Yeah. How to have a machine to make the taper. And so we have some smaller factories that we make, uh, some lines that we sell over here, but we want to scale up and also have, uh, available, uh, lines in the States eventually. 00:39:23 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:39:23 Speaker 2: So that’s something that we, we’re working on. And it’s so much fun actually to design lines also. That’s cool. Um, yeah. So that’s on the to do list that’s coming. 00:39:34 Speaker 1: That’s our to do list. Well I like what you I like what you guys have done because you have I feel like the, um, you know, there’s this saying that I’ve said a lot, but it’s the the riches are in the niches. You know, you start in niches in Canada, I think. And, you know, they say niches. But essentially the idea being like business, you start very niched down in one thing and then you become the best at that thing. And then eventually you grow out of that. So like, you guys obviously. Well, you know, we said two things, but the leader thing that you guys have you know that. And then the rods. Right. Those are your two things. And then eventually it sounds like you’ve nailed that. You maybe get into lines later on. 00:40:08 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And we’re we we make products for the fishing that we like. And it’s hard to design something that you have no experience in. Really. Right. Uh. We’re curious. We could learn, but it’s. Yeah. Uh, it’s. 00:40:25 Speaker 1: It takes some time. It takes. 00:40:26 Speaker 2: Some time. Yeah. It’s it’s trickier. And, um, um, it’s more fun to. 00:40:33 Speaker 1: To get to. 00:40:34 Speaker 2: Go. Yeah. To go out and actually design the products that we actually use in the company, uh, the people that are involved in the company. 00:40:42 Speaker 1: And so the rod lines you guys have, you have the Spey rods, the I mean, it sounds like, you know, really any whether you have a heavy Skagit or a light Scandi or anything else, you guys, your rods kind of cover that is that you guys kind of cover it all with your rod lines as far as putting a line on it. 00:40:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Uh, we have British people that use long lines on some different models, and we have, uh, yeah. From all the different lines from short to long, I would say, um, and we, um, when we started here in Sweden, there was always this, as I mentioned earlier, um, kind of an argument between Swedish people and Norwegian people about line weight to put on the rod. So then, uh, we started out just for line recommendation. We started here. Uh, it would be too complicated to have that in the States, but over here we started in grams, and then we had, uh, from weight, and then we added a plus. So let’s say an eight weight had, uh, thirty two grams plus. So for all the Norwegians that want to have thirty eight grams or maybe forty grams on the rod that Swedes normally use. Thirty two um. Then we added a plus and then we didn’t say that they were wrong to use that ahead. Everything is right. It’s just a matter of culture and and and taste. And also in my opinion, actually in general, the Swedes used way longer leaders. And you don’t really take the leader in to the account when you kind of pick your line and pick your what way to use, uh, on your rod. 00:42:27 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:42:28 Speaker 2: So if you have a longer leader, you can have a lighter line. And if you have a short leader, you need a heavier line. Um, and that’s something that I believe that people forget a little bit. 00:42:38 Speaker 1: Oh, right. Right. Short leader, heavy line, longer leader. Uh, well, what was that again? So you have the. Yeah. 00:42:43 Speaker 2: If you have a really long leader, you can have a lighter line. And if you have a short leader, you will need to load the rod equally. Uh, you will have to have a heavier line with your short leader. Yeah, sure. Right. So the leader can vary a lot. I mean, all in between seven foot to twenty feet. And that’s quite a big difference. 00:43:09 Speaker 1: What’s your leader? I know a lot of people sometimes, you know, either build out a leader or they just buy something from the store. What do you do for Atlantic salmon if you’re. Let’s just take it to Sweden. If you’re fishing Sweden, what is your leader look like? 00:43:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. Then then we use uh, in general we use, uh, approximately. A normal leader is between ten feet and fifteen feet. And most common now is to use, uh, then a thicker material as a bot and then a thinner. So you have two tickets, uh, on one leader. Uh, so you just taper it in one step down. Uh, and that’s enough. I think you can step into three three steps as well. If you want to spend more time and make the perfect leader, but you don’t have to to. You can go up to fifteen foot with just two steps and the fly will turn over. Good. 00:44:00 Speaker 1: And yeah. 00:44:01 Speaker 2: It will work really well. 00:44:02 Speaker 1: Is that what you do? And would you use the zentai is for your whole thing. Just use a thicker one. What would be your one tied to the line. What thickness would you use or what weight? 00:44:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, well then I would. The most common maybe is to use the zero point five three in the back, and then maybe go down to the forty three in the front. Uh, that would be a typical Salomon leader I would say that we’re using now. Yeah. And about twelve feet is, uh, yeah, you can use that in most cases, uh, uh, depending some. Yeah. There’s some theories that say that if you have a fast thinking line, you need a short leader. And if you if you have a slow sinking line or a floating line, then you have a longer leader. But there’s. Yeah, there’s different theories in that as well. There’s if you have a bigger river, uh, it can sometimes be very effective to actually have a long leader, even on a fast thinking line. So that’s also something you can nerd into. 00:45:03 Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. Yeah. You can get that whole thing about where you want your fly when you’re fishing Atlantic salmon. I’ve heard differences there too. Like we’re heading to Newfoundland, you know, to the place where Lee Wolfe, you know, his cabins. He used to have his lodge, the same lodge, same area. But, you know, we hear these fish are very active over there. They’re coming to the surface. It’s all dry flies, but I’ve heard I mean, Atlantic salmon isn’t always like that right there. What’s Sweden like? Is there a lot of surface activity. Would you describe that a little bit? 00:45:29 Speaker 2: No. In Sweden, very little surface activity. Even if the water is warm. Um, and it sometimes can get too warm to actually get the fish to bite. 00:45:38 Speaker 1: Oh, right. 00:45:38 Speaker 2: But there’s in general, if you use a full floating line, you’re kind of a weird guy. Uh, that that’s unusual. Uh, yeah, I like to use it if if it’s not stupid to use it, if it’s a chance to actually catch a fish up on a floating line. I prefer to use a floating line. But, uh, if it’s way more effective use of sinking line, I, I obviously go to sinking line. Um, but in many cases and in Sweden in general, it’s I would say you need a lot of different lines and you need to adapt the line to the conditions, uh, that’s in front of you when it comes to water temperature, how much how, how much water is. And so you need to really adapt and you need to have maybe actually more lines than different patterns in place. Right. So you can go a session and you can change maybe lines three times in one day, uh, just to have it perfect. Some people actually have, uh, maybe two of the same rods, and then they have two different line setups on those rods, so they don’t have to actually switch lines on the rods they have. So that’s also effective. 00:46:56 Speaker 1: Within the same session. You might come through. 00:46:58 Speaker 2: Within the same session. Uh, I know a Norwegian guy. He, he’s the most effective, uh, fisherman in Norwegian River. And he has three of the rods. So he puts the two of the rods that he doesn’t use, he puts on on the part of the stretch where specifically that line is the perfect line. So then he starts from the top of the pool, and then he, uh, used the first rod, and then he went in and then take the second rod because that line is perfect there. And then he wants that in and take the third rod. And so the lines are, yeah, we change a lot, uh, when it comes to line when it comes to salmon fishing. 00:47:39 Speaker 1: And you’re trying to get to that right level for Sam, and you’re trying to figure out like, yes, you know, where like and where are in Sweden? Where are those fish? Do they they change their location depending on whether they’re on, are they ever on the bottom or are they ever on the top? Talk about where they’re at. 00:47:54 Speaker 2: And that’s a good question. I think it has a little bit more to do with, uh, the speed of the water. Just when it’s really high speed, then you just need a faster sinking line to get to the perfect depth, uh, on the fish to actually get interested into your fly. Right. Um, so it has more to do, I would almost say, with the speed of the water than on of the depth of the water. 00:48:25 Speaker 1: The speed. Yeah. 00:48:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, to adapt the perfect line for the actual speed. 00:48:31 Speaker 1: Yeah. To get the right presentation. To get that fly. So it’s not you know, we’ve talked about that a lot. Right. Mending getting it so the flies presented, right? So it’s not just zipping by the fish, it’s actually getting the fish to take it. Right. So you got to figure that in the the right sinking line is going to make the fly perform correctly. 00:48:48 Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Uh, so yeah, speed is really crucial in general. And and I would probably when you go up there and you will I would say ninety nine percent use a full floating line, uh, going up to Newfoundland. Um, but also when it comes to, uh, up there, I would imagine that speed, uh, what speed? I would imagine that stripping the fly do things that I did when I started, uh, steelhead fishing. And the guy told me, don’t do that. Don’t touch the line. 00:49:20 Speaker 1: Right, right. You’re stripping and making it. Yeah. Right. 00:49:23 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I want to trigger the fish to bite in that Atlantic salmon. But when it comes to steel. And I’m quite amazed how slow you can present the fly and still the the steel that takes it. 00:49:35 Speaker 1: They still take it, I know. Yeah. It is pretty amazing. Well, summer still had especially. It’s different when you get to winters because the water is colder and you’re down deeper and, you know, things are changing. Um, but no, it’s pretty awesome. I’m really excited about seeing it finally, you know, and hopefully eventually I can get up in your neck of the woods to get up to Sweden. I would love to swing some flies and check that out up there too. So. Well, tell us before, you know, we’re going to start to take it out here in a bit. But talk about, um, you know, anything else we’re missing with Nam as far as the products because we talked about the rods, um, you know, we haven’t dug in deep on trout. Do you want to touch base on some of the other lineup? Yeah. Talk talk about that. Are you are you fishing for trout in Sweden as well? 00:50:14 Speaker 2: Yes. Uh, definitely. Sweden is a good destination for, uh, kind of a classical nine foot five weight, uh, fishery. Uh, so we have lots of that in general. In, in the more southern part of Europe, uh, urine.if is more popular, but we still have the chances of actually getting child to go up and take it dry. In Sweden, we don’t have that. Uh, there’s still rivers. That is not to, uh, to populated or too many people actually going there. So, uh, you can still get some interest on a dry fly. Uh, in the southern part of Europe, there’s lots of, uh, good trout fishing as well. But it’s so much more effective with the urine.if, uh, techniques. 00:51:06 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:51:07 Speaker 2: Um, so far we don’t have any urinary setups. Uh, but we have lots of different options when it comes to classic, uh, trout fishery, when you use a floating line and dry fly or for, uh, more traditional ways. Uh, we went to. What’s that now? Three years ago, um, to, uh, Montana, to Yellowstone. Nice. Uh, try the fishery there. And actually, first time for me that I did Trout Spey. 00:51:39 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 00:51:40 Speaker 2: And it was amazing because it was so practical to actually go. We just got recommended, uh, area, which was really big. So we actually didn’t know have a clue where the fish were. So instead of using a nine to five weight, uh, doing all those false casts that you usually do, and it’s not time effective. We used, uh, trout, spey rods. We did. Just like fishing for steelhead and covered so much more water, so much faster. And we could still fish very delicate with long leaders and, um. Yeah. So we didn’t spook the fish and, uh. Yeah, it was really, really effective. 00:52:23 Speaker 1: Wow. What flies were you using there when you’re fishing the trout Spey? 00:52:27 Speaker 2: Uh, soft tackles. Uh, soft tackles. Yeah. 00:52:30 Speaker 1: Swinging flies. 00:52:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, and long, maybe fifteen foot litres, uh, with a trout spey. Uh, quite short, uh, head. And yeah, it was really, really effective to do that and a lot of fun. Uh, we caught a lot of fish, and, uh, it was as fun or even maybe more fun than on a traditional nine foot, uh, five. Right? I would say so. So there are benefits if the. And but still some rivers are smaller and and um, or if you’re in a lake I know in Japan I’ve heard that they use two hundred rods, uh, going around in a lake because it’s not allowed to use a boat. So they have to cast really far. But from the bank in the lakes, that’s quite common in Japan. But, uh, other than otherwise, if you fish Stillwater, I prefer to use a rod. Of course. 00:53:24 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the rods I’m looking at here. Back to those Trout Spey series you’ve got. Yeah, I see the, um, the eleven foot six three way and then the four way. Right. The forty one. Yeah. 00:53:36 Speaker 2: And that’s something that we’re working on now in growing that program. So we’re going to make a lot of more options in trout Spey and right. And even do a five and six uh up there. And we have a thirteen foot six weight that I, I’m dreaming about using in the Deschutes. 00:53:56 Speaker 1: Oh, right. Thirty one. So right now you guys don’t have a thirty. Uh, yeah. The not a six. 00:54:01 Speaker 2: Weight in thirteen foot. 00:54:03 Speaker 1: We have thirteen foot. 00:54:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have a twelve. 00:54:05 Speaker 1: So that’s the rod. Yeah. You’re right. So that when you said fourteen foot I definitely am thinking like okay. Yeah, but you’re right on. So when you get that rod, you let me know. And, uh. Yeah. 00:54:14 Speaker 2: Thirteen point six weight in the Deschutes. Yeah. 00:54:16 Speaker 1: Yeah. That would be the perfect like. Yeah. Because it’s super light. And the steelhead, you know there’s definitely occasionally you’ll get into a big B run fish. You know the fish that’s migrating up the Columbia and turns in. But a lot of steelhead on the Deschutes. You know, some of them aren’t huge. You know, so you might definitely get a five pound steelhead. You could get a six pound. And that’s where that six weight and even up to ten pound. Right. You can land. I mean, I’ve landed Deschutes fish. I’ve hooked fish on trout, like you said, wet flies, fishing for trout landed them on five weights. You know you can do it. 00:54:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t think that’s, um. No, I. And if that would be the case that the too big of a fish takes your fly. Yeah, well, that’s a luxury. Probably takes it a little bit. 00:54:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he takes it. Okay. So you got the trout or the trout. Spey is amazing because I think again a lot of people are getting into that. The trout Spey. So you can do that in Sweden. Is that something that you’re able. And what are the trout species that are there in Sweden you’re fishing for. 00:55:13 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it’s mostly I would say brown trout and sea trout. That’s the two in Sweden. 00:55:20 Speaker 1: And sea trout are the migratory, the anadromous brown trout right. 00:55:24 Speaker 2: Yeah. So they, they, they, they are brown trout that go out to the, uh, into the sea, uh, both in the Baltic Sea and in the Atlantic. Yeah, in Norway they have some Arctic char, but not so much more in Iceland. And a lot of people are going, uh, for destination fishing in Greenland, for Arctic char. Uh, that’s also a beautiful fish. 00:55:49 Speaker 1: That’s really cool. Well, this has been good. Let’s take it out of here. We have a segment we call our Conservation Corner. And we love doing this one because we love focusing on, uh, conservation groups and some of the good work going out there today. This is presented by Patagonia. There’s swift current waders. They’re amazing. They’re doing great stuff obviously around the conservation as well. Um, we’ve been using their waders. It’s been awesome to have kind of Patagonia on board here for you. So first shout out to Patagonia. Talk about that. First let’s start on gear and then we’ll move into some of the other stuff. First on gear. What’s your because you mentioned guideline I think that company I think kind of does everything right. What are your what are you using for waders out there? First off. 00:56:29 Speaker 2: Uh, at the moment I’m using Patagonia, actually. 00:56:32 Speaker 5: Oh, there you go. Patagonia. 00:56:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I really like them. The pouches you have underneath is just so comfortable. And I’ve been using my pair now, I think, for four years, and. 00:56:44 Speaker 5: Oh, wow. 00:56:44 Speaker 2: No. No issues. Yeah. 00:56:47 Speaker 5: And are these the, are these. 00:56:48 Speaker 1: The swift current. Do you know what model is that. Are these. 00:56:51 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:56:51 Speaker 2: It’s the equator. The first uh. 00:56:54 Speaker 5: The first series. 00:56:55 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. 00:56:55 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. 00:56:56 Speaker 2: Dark green model. Uh, yeah. And they’re, they’re really, really, really good. Uh, but there’s, uh, there’s also, there’s new brands coming into waders and, and that’s exciting I think because I think there’s been too few in the past. Yeah. They make waders. Uh, and I understand because it’s tricky. 00:57:17 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. 00:57:18 Speaker 1: Well, it’s we did an episode recently with Patagonia and we talked about how they developed the waiters. And, you know, the challenge is, is the waiters is your ultimate thing. You know, I mean, first off, if it leaks on you, you know, it almost ruins your trip, right? So it’s that product. But then it’s not going to last forever either. But I think that’s where Patagonia has got it, right, because they’ve really put an effort into service. So if you do have problems, you know they’re going to fix it or replace it. You know what I mean? Usually at no charge. 00:57:44 Speaker 2: Yeah. And also I realized that most of the time that you actually use your waiters, you’re on land and actually not in the water. So you should be comfortable on land and you should be dry when you’re in the water. And that’s quite tricky. Yeah. I don’t know if waiters are actually breathing or if they’re semi breathing or, but it’s uh, yeah. Just not to get too. And I realized that some waiters actually if you go into the water and then out of the water on some waiters, which is really good with the Patagonia ones, is that, uh, it’s a good repellent or the water actually goes off, uh, the waiter. So you dry out really fast. 00:58:24 Speaker 5: Oh, right. Right, right. 00:58:25 Speaker 2: And some waiters, they kind of go into the water and out of the water, and the water is still on the waiter. 00:58:31 Speaker 5: Still, there’s no repellant. 00:58:33 Speaker 2: And so you still kind of. And then you sit down on a log or something like that, and then you. 00:58:38 Speaker 5: Kind of. 00:58:39 Speaker 2: Get that moisture pushed into. Yeah. So, uh, that’s something that I really enjoy with waiters that dry really fast. When you go out of the water, then you just feel like you’re more dry or more comfortable. 00:58:52 Speaker 1: I can’t explain, we talked about it on the podcast, but they’re doing a number of things. Obviously, conservation is always big. They’re getting rid of forever chemicals. You know, that’s the one thing they’ve got out of their line is they’ve created these waiters that don’t have any of those terrible chemicals that never go away. And the environment. Right. So they’re they’re doing their part. So that’s awesome. So that’s a nice big shout out to Patagonia. Talk about the conservation. Are there groups um local groups up in Sweden? I’m sure you guys have seen ups and downs with Atlantic salmon numbers just like other places. Is that something you guys are thinking about, or are there groups up there doing work or what are your thoughts? 00:59:24 Speaker 5: Yeah, there’s. 00:59:25 Speaker 2: People doing great, great things and they’re trying to buy out old, uh, netting. Uh. 00:59:35 Speaker 5: Right. 00:59:36 Speaker 2: You can see and and that because just yeah, the Baltic salmon is a really great fish when it comes to sport fishing or because they’re so aggressive. But when the sea is, there’s, um, it is a sea and it’s connected to the Atlantic salmon, but the water isn’t really, uh, changed a lot. So, uh, then when it comes to heavy metals in the fish. So it’s a little bit it’s not. So if you’re pregnant, you’re not allowed to eat Baltic fish more than once a month or something like that, or even not eat it. So it’s not really healthy for you. So it would be better just to let the fish be because it’s not healthy food anyhow. Yeah, and then eat healthy fish. 01:00:25 Speaker 5: Right. 01:00:26 Speaker 2: From another sea. Or, um, as I understand, uh, if you should buy salmon, the ones in Alaska is good for you. Or because there’s no fish farming in Alaska, as I understand it. 01:00:42 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:00:42 Speaker 1: There’s no fish farming. Yeah. Yeah, that’s the big thing you guys have to deal with is the. Yeah, we’ve heard about that a lot. The fish farming, the net pins, there’s diseases that start there and that affects the the wild population because you guys still have we’re talking these are wild fish that are coming back. You’re fishing for right. Or do you have hatcheries that are coming back as well into the stream. 01:01:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. In the Baltic Sea there’s wild fish that’s wild. Yeah. And most of it in Norway. There are some rivers in Iceland that’s too cold for the fish to spawn. So that’s the actually the most famous ones are hatchery fish, but in general it’s wild fish that you fish for. 01:01:21 Speaker 1: It’s wild fish. 01:01:22 Speaker 5: Okay. Yeah. 01:01:23 Speaker 1: This is perfect. Well, I’ve got a couple more for you. Then we’ll get out here really quick. One thing I just want to give a heads up. We mentioned again on the The Leader. We talked about the diameter, which is the big thing. We talked about the leader you like was I think you said I’m going to look at the zentai. You mentioned. You build your twelve foot leader. It’s got starts with sixty pounds at the butt and then down to forty five, but that’s zero point five three and zero point four three millimeters, which is really interesting because you’re talking sixty pound and forty five. I just looked at it in maxima at eight pounds. So eight pound, which is, you know, a lot less zero point two five millimeters. Right. So we’re literally looking at it’s closer to oh point two. I’m just looking at your other. Yeah. So your zero point two five millimeters is sixteen pounds. So it’s like twice the poundage right of the equivalent millimeters. Yeah. 01:02:11 Speaker 2: It’s really really strong. Uh but you should be careful going to. 01:02:17 Speaker 1: Uh, too heavy or too thin. 01:02:21 Speaker 2: Also, uh, because of the abrasion, uh. 01:02:24 Speaker 1: The abrasion. Right? 01:02:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it’s, uh, it makes a big difference if the material is thicker when it comes to abrasion. 01:02:32 Speaker 1: Yeah. It’s thicker. Okay. Yeah. So if I was going to use it on the Deschutes, I might go with maybe you think that zero point three three or do you think the oh point four four three. 01:02:41 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. No the three three is the twenty six pound is is perfect for the Deschutes I would say okay. 01:02:48 Speaker 1: There you go. So I’m going to pick some of that up. So good. So we got that. And let’s talk one more and then we’ll get out of here. So cold weather. How do you we talked about waders. How are you staying. You’re in an area that gets some cold weather. How do you stay warm in the winter. What’s your tip. You know so you don’t freeze out there. 01:03:01 Speaker 2: There’s so many brands out there now that make good on the layer. And it’s, uh, uh, I have those Patagonia ones which has, uh, there’s like small pillows in the parent. apparent. And I think that’s. 01:03:15 Speaker 1: Oh really? 01:03:15 Speaker 2: Quite. Yeah. The green one I don’t know. I don’t remember what it’s called, but it’s. 01:03:19 Speaker 1: Okay. 01:03:20 Speaker 2: I think because you don’t want your waiter to be too close to your. You want some? 01:03:25 Speaker 1: No. 01:03:26 Speaker 2: Um. 01:03:27 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:03:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. There’s this. Cool. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it. There’s a cool brand called Loch Waiters. No I haven’t. Yeah, they have a cool invention. So they have a 3D mesh inside of their waiter, which make a little bit of cushion between you and the outer fabric. So even if you sweat, you never feel the sweat on your body. And. Wow, I realized this because working at guideline, they had lots of warranty that actually weren’t warranties. It was just people that thought that the waiters were leaking. 01:04:01 Speaker 1: Right? They were sweating. 01:04:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were sweating. And then you go into cold water and then, uh, the fabric just goes straight onto your leg. Kind of. Yeah. The pressure of the work. Uh, so then it feels like, oh, wow, it gets cold, but the waiters aren’t leaking. Actually, it’s just that all that sweat just suddenly goes up to your skin, and then you feel, uh, wetter and colder. So just to get to. Yeah. When it comes to waiters and when it comes to, uh, how to layer is just to try to have something that, uh, that doesn’t touch your skin too much, something that kind of, uh, pushes the fabric, uh, the inner fabric of your waiters away as much as possible. Yeah. Amazing. And, uh. But, yeah. Waiters, it’s quite cool. Yeah. Locke. 01:04:54 Speaker 1: Locke. Yeah. Locke. Waiters. Yeah. They’re in Sweden too, right? Are they. Are they near your I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. How do you pronounce that? Ling ling sauce. How do you pronounce the city? 01:05:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s where the companies, uh, but, yeah, it’s really close to me. And it’s it’s friend of mine, and it seems like quite a lot of steel had people like it because it’s very, very strong. Uh, waiters, that’s. And if you’re up in BC or wherever you are, uh, in general, it’s quite cold. They’re super durable waiters. I think they have some Kevlar in the fabric and really strong Kevlar. 01:05:30 Speaker 1: Right, right, right. Yeah. I’m looking at now they got a they got a whole thing on here on how to dress too and stuff like that. As far as your feet. That’s the big thing for me. I find that I do well. My feet are the one thing that occasionally I’ve been in New York fishing for steelhead and frozen my feet off because I didn’t have, you know, the right, uh, the gear. But, um, same thing. It’s just layering, having good wool and all that stuff. 01:05:50 Speaker 6: Yes, yes. 01:05:51 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:05:52 Speaker 6: Perfect. So, yeah. 01:05:53 Speaker 2: That’s, uh. Yeah. You have to be comfortable when you’re out fishing and sometimes it’s cold. 01:05:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is cold. It is cold. Good. Well, well, Marcus, this has been great. I think we can I know you got to get going here. So I think we can leave it there for today and we’ll send everybody out to non products. That’s Nam as in mom, if they want to check in with all your lineup. And yeah, I just want to thank you for all the all the great work out there. And it’s been good. We’ve been doing some events a little bit here with you guys, and I’m excited to see the new line. We get that thirteen footer six weight. That’ll be fun. Yeah yeah. So thanks again for all your time. 01:06:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. 01:06:29 Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed that one. If you get a chance haven’t already you can follow us on Spotify and Apple. Just click that follow button. You’ll get the next episode delivered to your inbox. If you’re interested in going on a trip with us getting first access, Wet Fly Swing Pro is the best place. If you’re already a member, you know you have first access to all trips and also everything. All the other goodness in the group connecting with the community. Go to Wet Fly Swing Pro Pro. Uh, we mentioned the trip. We’re heading for Pike. We’re heading up to Saskatchewan for pike fishing. If you want to go and have an amazing northern pike fishing opportunity, this is your chance. Uh, again, check in with me and we’ll put together. I got to get out of here. Got a big day today on the water. Hope you’re enjoying your day and hope you have a great morning, a great afternoon, and if it’s evening, hope you have a wonderful evening. Get some rest tonight and get ready for that big day on the water fishing tomorrow. Check in with me. If I haven’t heard from you before, send me a message. I’d love to hear where you’re going, what you’re doing. Uh, Dave at com. I always love to hear from people, uh, that haven’t checked in yet. So if you haven’t emailed me, you can do that right now. And I read every single email. Uh, I would love to hear where you’re coming from in the in the country and the world. And that’s all I got for you. Thanks again. And we will see you and talk to you on the next episode. Have a good one.